Aerosmith Vs. New York Dolls

[carl]

Let's try and get a little debate going.

The story and controversy is that Aerosmith was signed and/or pieced together as a way of taking away the fame that was deserved for the Dolls. Exact conspiracy theories can be found in cyberspace, and in books. I will dig them up if some folks wish to see them, but they are out there.

My stance: no matter what, Aerosmith was going to be the bigger band.

1. They were by far superior musicians, and Tyler is by far the better singer. You might like David J. more, but there is no denying that Tyler has more range, and more commercial appeal to his voice. Most people when pointing out their dislike for the Dolls, will ultimately point to David J.
Joe Perry could also play circles around Thunders. Yes, Johhny had more of an original style, but he was just okay from a technical stand point. Blasphemy? Maybe...but I will take Perry.

2. The song quality was superior with Aerosmith. This one is very much a personal opinion, but, I do think the quality of songs from Aerosmith was superior.

3. Aerosmith could hold their chemical abuses better. The drugs and substance abuse took hold of the Dolls much harder than it did 'Smith, and we know what happened. The drugs ruined the Dolls, whereas from what the case appears to be, the sobriety ruined Aerosmith. So, thanks to years on the substance abuse train, there was more quality turnout from Aerosmith.

This is going with early 'Smith. Obviously the Dolls were superior to anything Aerosmith has done in the past 25 years or so. But during the early period, I don't think any sabotage could have done what natural talent was going to do.

[chrisdamien]

It's kinda hard to debate when I agree with everything you said

I got into the Dolls at a much younger age and all in all I would say they have meant a lot more to me than Aerosmith, even if I love them too, but the Dolls were already finished before they recorded their second album.

Of the 10 songs on the 2nd. Dolls album, 5 of them were covers. Most of their 5 originals were songs that were already around at the time of the first album. The band was starting to get shit for not developing and never having any new songs in their live set and they were already going downhill even before that album was recorded.

When Malcolm McLaren got a hold of them, they had a small spark of creativity again and wrote all the songs that ended up on the Red Patent Leather bootleg and I'm thinking a 3rd Dolls album could have been just as good as the first one, but obviously by then the substance abuse was ripping the band apart and Malcolm's commie image wasn't a wise thing either.

New York Dolls were rockstars first and foremost and bands like that never last long. Aerosmith were musicians first and foremost, they had much more talent and they kept rising with album after album. Of course they were gonna win. The only thing the Dolls were better at musically than Aerosmith were lyrics. Most of David's lyrics destroy everything Tyler has ever written.

[carl]

O.K., then how about a Tyler fronted NY Dolls, with David writing the lyrics for him?

[chrisdamien]

hahaha... Never thought about that one.
I'm one of those people who love Johansen's voice and I think he's a perfect fit for the Dolls. For me they wouldn't have been better with Tyler on vocals. I like them just the way they are and I also like Aerosmith the way they are/were.

I guess if you wanted a musically superior band, IMO that would be:
Steven Tyler - Vocals
Joe Perry - Guitar
Brad Whitford - Guitar
Tom Hamilton - Bass
Jerry Nolan - Drums

But that would just be Aerosmith with a better drummer :-)
Maybe if Johansen wrote the lyrics it would be Aerosmith with a better drummer and better lyrics, but I think Tyler's lyrics fit well with Aerosmith... Might have been ever better with Johansen's lyrics, but I'm not sure.

The Dolls, to me, like the Sex Pistols and a few other bands is a band that really need all the members, even if they are not perfect. Johansen was the one who was able to tell a story, do it great and sleazy and give that extra added "something" to the music. Like Rotten did for the Pistols. Jerry Nolan was the musician in the group, a fantastic drummer that could easily have played with almost anyone. Sylvain is the second best musician with a lot of cool riffs and a real sense of melody and songwriting. Thunders is the image and the raw energy and Arthur... well, to me he wasn't that important. Being the worst musician of the group and not contributing much to songwriting, but he still had the look that made you feel a little uneasy about the Dolls.

When you listen to the solo albums, you hear what's missing.
Thunders has the raw energy, the great guitarsound and a work ethic that made him the post-Dolls star. He also had a few classic tracks, but overall it's the songwriting he's missing. Too much A and D with no special melodies or pop sensibility to it.

Sylvain has the pop sensibility and writes great melodies, but without the others his stuff turned out too "nice" and mostly pop music with safe guitars, not hard hitting at all.

Johansen also lacked the rawness in his music, even if I like his solo stuff as well and he seemed to be better with the big arrangements than all the others combined.

Nolan could have played with anyone I guess and didn't do much solo stuff and not a lot was heard from Arthur afterwards either.

[carl]

Good points. I do like the idea of Nolan playing with Smith. That would have been pretty cool. After I made that post, I did stop and thing about Aerosmith doing a version of "Jet Boy," and I have to tell you, I like that idea a whole lot! I think that one they could have done very well.

[alalvin]

Carl, I have never heard of this at all.

1. I will agree with this statement.

2. This one can be up for debate. Yes, I agree for the general public the song writing and the music was more for the public than the Dolls.

3. They were only to able to keep it under control for 3 more years than the Dolls. And I think that Malcom had something do to with that. Maybe it was the drugs that lead to believe that taking the Red Patent Leather look.

Another thing to look at is the backing that the labels had as well. Wasn't Columbia the bigger label at the time? When did Sire come in to play? Was Mercury trying to be like Sire?

As Chris talk about combing the bands. It might work.

Steven vs David - Steven had the better voice overall. I think it would have been great for them to write together.

Perry vs Thunders - 2 different styles. Thunders is the Keith Richards of lead guitar and Perry was a lead guitarist.

Whitford vs Sylvain - Sylvain in my books win.

Now could you combine Perry on lead with Thunders on rythm, maybe. Now Perry and Sylvain I think could work.

Hamilton vs Kane - Either way I think they are both good.

Krammer vs Nolan - Nolan is a solid basic drummer. He is like the Charlie Watts. Krammer is more of the bigger drummer of sound. This one could go either way.

[carl]

I've heard this theory in a couple of places. I won't mention the person who first brought it to my attention, but I did do a little looking into it a few years ago, and there is some talk about it. It's not as HUGE of a conspiracy theory as some others, but due to the management angle, timing, and a few other things, one can see where the ideas could form.

[chrisdamien]

I don't agree with Nolan being a Charlie Watts type at all.
Nolan is a flashy drummer with a lot of skills. He could play circles around the musical talent of all the other Dolls and actually had to tone down his playing a bit to suit the band. He's got great timing and an ear to find the beat and all that Charlie Watts stuff, but Kramer also has that. It's the flashy stuff that Nolan can do that makes him stand out.

I guess to me it's the other way around. Kramer is the Charlie Watts type. A good solid "English type" (meaning Zep-style) drummer, who was able to play exactly what Tyler told him to play and delivered the meat and potatoes solidly, while Nolan was more inventive.

The bassplayers are the weakest musical link in both bands. In Aerosmith they nagged Tom to rehearse in the beginning cause he wasn't as good as the rest of them and he never got that good either, but he's become a good solid bassplayer for Aerosmith and he can do more than the 8th note bass stuff as well.
Arthur is a horrible bassplayer. Even on the records you can hear him being all over the place. The bass is off beat in several places and instead of rehearsing and catching up to the rest of the guys in his band, Arthur started drinking and just became worse and worse. As a bassplayer he's a complete joke, but luckily the Dolls were about so much more than just playing great.

Sylvain/Whitford is more debatable as both guys are really good at what they do.

If I remember correctly the conspiracy theory is that both bands were signed to the same management or something. And as the Dolls deteriorated and Aerosmith started to blossom, the management started working a lot more for Aerosmith than they did for the Dolls.

I'm sure there is a lot more to it and Carl probably knows more about that than me though, but I guess the reality of it is that The Dolls were finished after their first album. They stopped writing songs, they stopped developing, they had a lot of in-fights and some shambolic gigs, while Aerosmith was a young and hungry band who delivered the goods. As a businessman I would have worked for Aerosmith too, no matter how much I love the Dolls.

[hazardous]

I can't believe I've seen the Dolls more than Aerosmith.

Dolls Count - 3 times
Smith - 2

I think Aerosmith are far more commercially appealing, so they would have become more successful IMO regardless if the Dolls didn't crash and burn.

[Hud]

The Dolls are THE band. Aerosmith are good, very good but they ain't the Dolls.

[Gav Ruadh]

I'd have like to have seen the Dolls last longer than they did, but as usual, anything Malcolm McLaren got involved in.... haha
However, no doubt that it would have been Aerosmith that survived and had the success they did.
Given time, the Dolls might have shown a little more substance. They were great fun! Just not as much to them as Aerosmith.

[chrisdamien]

Yeah. One of my biggest wishes in music history is that the Dolls would have done one more studio album. The songs on Red Patent Leather, that ended up on their solo albums are fantastic and would have been much better in Dolls' studio versions than on the solo albums.

Teenage News is a lot better than Personality Crisis. Pirate Love is fantastic. Girls fit the band perfectly and could also have been a hit.
The rest of the new songs are good too, but those 3 are all classics.